Discussion:
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran to counter any US attack on her nuclear arsenal development
(too old to reply)
Passerby
2003-09-06 13:49:50 UTC
Permalink
That's alright. Russians are famous for their Surface-to-Air missiles.
However in order to harm
USAF or IAF planes they need Surface-to-Airplane missiles and they have a
serious trouble developing those.
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.
shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
According to the newspaper, General Rokhlin suggested that, having
launched military satellites, Iran would be able not only to monitor
all movements inside the country, on its borders and in the region,
but also to ensure its security using various air and missile defense
systems. "As Iran decided to build an atomic power station, it is
necessary to protect it from multiple enemies. For its part, Russia is
ready to provide the most advanced air defense system," General
Rokhlin said.
According to Mr. Safarov, Iran's leadership showed great interest in
this proposal and requested information about the price and technical
specifications of the air defense system. According to the Russian
side, the system would cost about $3-4bn, and it would take at least 3
years to build.
The Iranian delegation said it needed to discuss this issue with the
country's leadership. However, there was no official request from
Iran.
Meanwhile, the Russian delegation headed by professor Zhores Alferov,
Nobel Prize winner and member of the State Duma, will head for Teheran
on September 19, 2003. It is expected that the visit will last about
five days. Perhaps, the issue of the air defense system will also be
discussed at the talks.
At the same time, a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA) is scheduled for September 8, 2003 in Vienna. International
experts will discuss Iran's nuclear programs. Having allowed a leak of
information about its secret talks with Iran, Russia raises its stake
in the talks with the United States. After the war in Iraq,
anti-American sentiment is growing all around the world. In this
situation, Russian air and missile defense systems are becoming more
popular.
Tom E.
2003-09-06 16:33:45 UTC
Permalink
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner. They may need this equiptment to defend themselves
against neighboring Muslim countries. Iran itself will become
an apostate! Tom
Winston Smith, American Patriot
2003-09-06 18:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!

That's how it should have happened in Iraq.

What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.

The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly understandable.
Thom
2003-09-07 07:03:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:49 GMT, "Winston Smith, American Patriot"
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!
That's how it should have happened in Iraq.
What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.
The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly understandable.
take a look in your own back yard. Indonesia has started taking
delivery of 28 Russian Sukhoi SU-27's and 30's, an unknown number of
Mi-35 choppers and the S-300 air defence system. When this is done it
will make Indonesia better equiped that Australia to the south or any
carrier group we can field in the region.

THOM
Boris Goodenough
2003-09-07 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thom
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:49 GMT, "Winston Smith, American Patriot"
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!
That's how it should have happened in Iraq.
What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.
The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly
understandable.
Post by Thom
take a look in your own back yard. Indonesia has started taking
delivery of 28 Russian Sukhoi SU-27's and 30's, an unknown number of
Mi-35 choppers and the S-300 air defence system. When this is done it
will make Indonesia better equiped that Australia to the south or any
carrier group we can field in the region.
THOM
Just curious...why didn't the wonder-weapon S-300 stop the Bali bombing?

Sukhois were designed during Soviet Union days. It has a massive IR
signature which is like a giant neon sign to an A/A missile...saying please
shoot me down.
zolota
2003-09-08 06:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Thom
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:49 GMT, "Winston Smith, American Patriot"
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!
That's how it should have happened in Iraq.
What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.
The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly
understandable.
Post by Thom
take a look in your own back yard. Indonesia has started taking
delivery of 28 Russian Sukhoi SU-27's and 30's, an unknown number of
Mi-35 choppers and the S-300 air defence system. When this is done it
will make Indonesia better equiped that Australia to the south or any
carrier group we can field in the region.
THOM
Just curious...why didn't the wonder-weapon S-300 stop the Bali bombing?
Are you saying that the S-300 is good against truck bombs? If so, it sure
seems to be superior for whatever the Yanks are using in Iraq to defend
sites from trucks.

Z
Lucifer
2003-09-08 09:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Am Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:56:58 GMT hat Boris Goodenough
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!
That's how it should have happened in Iraq.
What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.
The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly
understandable.
Except that Iran is likely to collapse from within. A nation divided
against
itself can not stand.
No need for fancy missile systems when you're hanging from the end of a
rope.
Then way you still propose a overblown and not working missile defense
system? Why don't you simply buy a working one from Russia? As far as i
know , Moskow is the only capital in the world defended against ballistic
missiles.

Lucifer
--
One nation may support another’s cause, but will never take it so seriously
as it takes its own.
A moderately-sized force will be sent to its help; but if things go wrong
the operation is pretty well written off, and one tries to withdraw at the
smallest possible cost.
Clausewitz, On War
Boris Goodenough
2003-09-08 18:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lucifer
Am Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:56:58 GMT hat Boris Goodenough
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Winston Smith, American Patriot
Post by Tom E.
There could be a silver lining in this. The IRI's regime is living
on borrowed time, and the Democratic Republic of Iran is right
around the corner.
Perfectly acceptable that regime change come from within!
That's how it should have happened in Iraq.
What we don't need is Soviet-style imperialism and illegal invasions and
occupations of countries as the U.S. did in Iraq.
The U.S. has no business intimidating or harassing Iran given its actions
toward Iraq, and anything Iran does in acquiring the tools to defend its
country against the insanity of George W. Bush is perfectly
understandable.
Except that Iran is likely to collapse from within. A nation divided
against
itself can not stand.
No need for fancy missile systems when you're hanging from the end of a
rope.
Then way you still propose a overblown and not working missile defense
system? Why don't you simply buy a working one from Russia? As far as i
know , Moskow is the only capital in the world defended against ballistic
missiles.
Lucifer
Syria was heavily defended by A/A missiles. That only slowed down the
Israelis.
Baghdad WAS defended by missiles. That didn't change anything...twice...in
1991 or 2003.
Belgrade was defended. That didn't change the outcome.

BTW...Moscow's air defense system was already thwarted by a guy named
Matthius Rust. How did he do it? Easily. He just flew in and landed in Red
Square.
Post by Lucifer
--
One nation may support another's cause, but will never take it so
seriously
Post by Lucifer
as it takes its own.
A moderately-sized force will be sent to its help; but if things go wrong
the operation is pretty well written off, and one tries to withdraw at the
smallest possible cost.
Clausewitz, On War
Lucifer
2003-09-08 21:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Am Mon, 08 Sep 2003 18:50:29 GMT hat Boris Goodenough
Post by Boris Goodenough
Post by Lucifer
Then way you still propose a overblown and not working missile defense
system? Why don't you simply buy a working one from Russia? As far as i
know , Moskow is the only capital in the world defended against ballistic
missiles.
Lucifer
Syria was heavily defended by A/A missiles. That only slowed down the
Israelis.
Baghdad WAS defended by missiles. That didn't change
anything...twice...in
1991 or 2003.
Belgrade was defended. That didn't change the outcome.
By 20-30 year old systems. Yet, the serbians managed to shut down a F-117
with such an outdated system.
Post by Boris Goodenough
BTW...Moscow's air defense system was already thwarted by a guy named
Matthius Rust. How did he do it? Easily. He just flew in and landed in Red
Square.
On a ballistic missile? LOL

Lucifer
--
One nation may support another’s cause, but will never take it so seriously
as it takes its own.
A moderately-sized force will be sent to its help; but if things go wrong
the operation is pretty well written off, and one tries to withdraw at the
smallest possible cost.
Clausewitz, On War
Cyberhacker
2003-09-06 19:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Right. That's why Bush is trying to stop the sales of those anti-aircraft
missiles. Iran would destroy Israel in months.
Post by Passerby
That's alright. Russians are famous for their Surface-to-Air missiles.
However in order to harm
USAF or IAF planes they need Surface-to-Airplane missiles and they have a
serious trouble developing those.
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.
Post by Passerby
shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
According to the newspaper, General Rokhlin suggested that, having
launched military satellites, Iran would be able not only to monitor
all movements inside the country, on its borders and in the region,
but also to ensure its security using various air and missile defense
systems. "As Iran decided to build an atomic power station, it is
necessary to protect it from multiple enemies. For its part, Russia is
ready to provide the most advanced air defense system," General
Rokhlin said.
According to Mr. Safarov, Iran's leadership showed great interest in
this proposal and requested information about the price and technical
specifications of the air defense system. According to the Russian
side, the system would cost about $3-4bn, and it would take at least 3
years to build.
The Iranian delegation said it needed to discuss this issue with the
country's leadership. However, there was no official request from
Iran.
Meanwhile, the Russian delegation headed by professor Zhores Alferov,
Nobel Prize winner and member of the State Duma, will head for Teheran
on September 19, 2003. It is expected that the visit will last about
five days. Perhaps, the issue of the air defense system will also be
discussed at the talks.
At the same time, a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA) is scheduled for September 8, 2003 in Vienna. International
experts will discuss Iran's nuclear programs. Having allowed a leak of
information about its secret talks with Iran, Russia raises its stake
in the talks with the United States. After the war in Iraq,
anti-American sentiment is growing all around the world. In this
situation, Russian air and missile defense systems are becoming more
popular.
Jack White
2003-09-08 08:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyberhacker
Right. That's why Bush is trying to stop the sales of those anti-aircraft
missiles. Iran would destroy Israel in months.
You too are living in a dream world.
Israel is a regional superpower and it has 400 nuclear weapons and the
best military in the middle east.
Iran has the 2nd most powerful military in the middle east, and the
Jerusalem post said that Iran has 4 nuclear weapons.
I will say one thing though, Iran is catching up to Israel and Iran
actually has a higher military budget than Israel.
Iran is certainly much more powerful than any country that Israel has
ever fought a war against before.
Saudi Arabia has a higher military budget than BOTH Israel and Iran
COMBINED.
Saudi Arabia has an incredibly high mlitary budget for a 3rd world
county(comprable to the Modern First World country of Italy).
The Saudis are LAZY and SPOILED and they make INCREDIBLY STUPID
decisions on which military equipment to buy and they don't have
highly trained personal and so their military is a HUGE UNDERACHIEVER.
Post by Cyberhacker
Post by Passerby
That's alright. Russians are famous for their Surface-to-Air missiles.
However in order to harm
USAF or IAF planes they need Surface-to-Airplane missiles and they have a
serious trouble developing those.
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.
Post by Passerby
shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
According to the newspaper, General Rokhlin suggested that, having
launched military satellites, Iran would be able not only to monitor
all movements inside the country, on its borders and in the region,
but also to ensure its security using various air and missile defense
systems. "As Iran decided to build an atomic power station, it is
necessary to protect it from multiple enemies. For its part, Russia is
ready to provide the most advanced air defense system," General
Rokhlin said.
According to Mr. Safarov, Iran's leadership showed great interest in
this proposal and requested information about the price and technical
specifications of the air defense system. According to the Russian
side, the system would cost about $3-4bn, and it would take at least 3
years to build.
The Iranian delegation said it needed to discuss this issue with the
country's leadership. However, there was no official request from
Iran.
Meanwhile, the Russian delegation headed by professor Zhores Alferov,
Nobel Prize winner and member of the State Duma, will head for Teheran
on September 19, 2003. It is expected that the visit will last about
five days. Perhaps, the issue of the air defense system will also be
discussed at the talks.
At the same time, a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA) is scheduled for September 8, 2003 in Vienna. International
experts will discuss Iran's nuclear programs. Having allowed a leak of
information about its secret talks with Iran, Russia raises its stake
in the talks with the United States. After the war in Iraq,
anti-American sentiment is growing all around the world. In this
situation, Russian air and missile defense systems are becoming more
popular.
g***@hotmail.com
2003-09-06 20:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.shtml
The IAF figured out how to dispose of Russian SAM over twenty years
ago.
Passerby
2003-09-06 19:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Why? Russian SAMs are proven to be quite capable against passenger
airliners.
Post by Passerby
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod
.shtml
Post by Passerby
The IAF figured out how to dispose of Russian SAM over twenty years
ago.
Michael Petukhov
2003-09-07 14:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@hotmail.com
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.shtml
The IAF figured out how to dispose of Russian SAM over twenty years
ago.
Why IAF only? As far as I remmeber Russian S-200s deployed in Syria
in October-December 1982 shot down not only Irael planes but also some
USAF F15s and at least one US NAVY radar patrol EA-6B. There have been
recently a documentary on that story here in Russian TV where one
russian officier of S-200 battery even said he was able to personaly
talk with pilots (Irael major and US collonel) from F15s shot down
just days before that. Those pilots were delivered by Syrians to
S-200 site for ... opinion exchange.

Michael
Thom
2003-09-07 07:06:30 UTC
Permalink
That's good news. We know how well the Soviet air defense system did
when the Germans attacked in WWII, and how easily Israel defeated Russian
air defenses employed by the Arabs in previous wars. A Russian air-defense
system is much easier for Israel to defeat than an American, French or Swedish
air defense system. So it's good that Iran is investing in a Russian
air defense system. Good for Israel, that is.
that was then this is now. The SU-30/35/37 is the most advanced and
deadly fighter in the world. Russian companies are now partnered with
European defence structure, especially french, and the mix of the two
are creating superior products.

Right now we have nothing that will counter the Flankers except better
pilots and the new SAAB-35 is a serious problem too. Our F-35 and
F-22 are way behind sechedule and outragiously expensive.

THOM
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
According to the newspaper, General Rokhlin suggested that, having
launched military satellites, Iran would be able not only to monitor
all movements inside the country, on its borders and in the region,
but also to ensure its security using various air and missile defense
systems. "As Iran decided to build an atomic power station, it is
necessary to protect it from multiple enemies. For its part, Russia is
ready to provide the most advanced air defense system," General
Rokhlin said.
According to Mr. Safarov, Iran's leadership showed great interest in
this proposal and requested information about the price and technical
specifications of the air defense system. According to the Russian
side, the system would cost about $3-4bn, and it would take at least 3
years to build.
The Iranian delegation said it needed to discuss this issue with the
country's leadership. However, there was no official request from
Iran.
Meanwhile, the Russian delegation headed by professor Zhores Alferov,
Nobel Prize winner and member of the State Duma, will head for Teheran
on September 19, 2003. It is expected that the visit will last about
five days. Perhaps, the issue of the air defense system will also be
discussed at the talks.
At the same time, a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA) is scheduled for September 8, 2003 in Vienna. International
experts will discuss Iran's nuclear programs. Having allowed a leak of
information about its secret talks with Iran, Russia raises its stake
in the talks with the United States. After the war in Iraq,
anti-American sentiment is growing all around the world. In this
situation, Russian air and missile defense systems are becoming more
popular.
zolota
2003-09-08 06:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Passerby
That's alright. Russians are famous for their Surface-to-Air missiles.
However in order to harm
USAF or IAF planes they need Surface-to-Airplane missiles and they have a
serious trouble developing those.
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.
Post by Passerby
shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
{snipage}
Well, the Russian built very effective SAM site for the North
Vietnamese. I am sure Fonda would have loved to have visited and used
one of those. Of course, the Air Force developed new tactics to take
them out, and a few new weapons, including the Shrike anti radar missle.
Those SAM -7s hurt Israel alot too in 1973. They wern't very effective
in Iraq, they just became a real good target for the US airforce.
One fun thing from the early days of the war, the Russians sold GPS
jammers to the Iraqis. The US air force loved them, as they could be
used as a way of identifing targets.
The Iranians need to remember two things: 1) Russian equipment has
serious quality controll issues and 2) Operationg these things requires
a great deal more sophistication than the Iranian military has been able
to demonstrate up to now. Next winter the Bush and Rumsfield will be
talking to the Iranians the same way they were talking to Hussein last
year. And russian air defense equipment wont stop the US air force
anymore. The Iranians had better be prepared to deal with Rumsfield, or
they will have to deal with the 1st Infintry division.
--
Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free
health care and a high degree of literacy.\
Any idea what percentage of these jackboots are worn by graduates of the
School of The Americas and affiliated institutions?

Z
Michael Petukhov
2003-09-08 07:55:36 UTC
Permalink
That's good news.
What? US and Israel lied it never lost many of their best planes
and pilots is good news for you?
We know how well the Soviet air defense system did
when the Germans attacked in WWII, and how easily Israel defeated Russian
air defenses employed by the Arabs in previous wars.
What I was talking was russian batteries under russian personel control. Arabs
is a different story. Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.
Not bad perspectives for its population...

Michael
JGB
2003-09-08 15:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Petukhov
That's good news.
What? US and Israel lied it never lost many of their best planes
and pilots is good news for you?<
We know how well the Soviet air defense system did
when the Germans attacked in WWII, and how easily Israel defeated Russian
air defenses employed by the Arabs in previous wars.
What I was talking was russian batteries under russian personel control. Arabs
is a different story. <
Well, since my father was in the Red Army in WWII, I never meant to disparage
the quality of Russian equipment or capabilities of Russian soldiers.
Nevertheless, I prefer that if ISrael is forced into war again, I think
it is better that it is generally better if it is going up against Russian
equipment than American or French. But I could be wrong. BTW, thanks for
admitting that the Russians were manning Egyptian SAM batteries and even
flying some of EGypt's aircraft.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.<
"Poor Arabs?" So how are these poor ARabs going to pay for your Russian
equipment, with oil? As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it. That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments. That's why Israel won't be going down alone.
Trust me on this.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Michael
Michael Petukhov
2003-09-09 06:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
That's good news.
What? US and Israel lied it never lost many of their best planes
and pilots is good news for you?<
We know how well the Soviet air defense system did
when the Germans attacked in WWII, and how easily Israel defeated Russian
air defenses employed by the Arabs in previous wars.
What I was talking was russian batteries under russian personel control. Arabs
is a different story. <
Well, since my father was in the Red Army in WWII, I never meant to disparage
the quality of Russian equipment or capabilities of Russian soldiers.
Nevertheless, I prefer that if ISrael is forced into war again, I think
it is better that it is generally better if it is going up against Russian
equipment than American or French.
Your absolutely legitimate right. I would add also the russian equipment
of the same generation as US one used by Israel.
Post by JGB
But I could be wrong. BTW, thanks for
admitting that the Russians were manning Egyptian SAM batteries and even
flying some of EGypt's aircraft.
You are wellcome. Although I was talking about Syria where S-200
SAMs were manned by our crews and for the relatively short time
nov/82- jan/83. In Egypt, as far as I know, russian pilots flew
only recon Mig-25 missions over Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.<
"Poor Arabs?" So how are these poor ARabs going to pay for your Russian
equipment, with oil?
Some how. Why not with oil?
Post by JGB
As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it.
I am not jew hater. Although equally I see no reasons to be
a jew lover.
Post by JGB
That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Even if so, which I strongly doubt. What's for? We are
not going to bomb Israel in that tragic case. Most probably
we will offer our help to evacuate as much of
jew civilian population as possible from former Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments.
Which sentiments? If someone says that Israel has no
right to loss even a minor battle he/she is certainly
antisemite. Right? Nice logic indicating only
your inferiority complex. Everybody must love jews, right?
Post by JGB
That's why Israel won't be going down alone.
Trust me on this.
I trust you. The question is for how long?

Michael
JGB
2003-09-09 15:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Well, since my father was in the Red Army in WWII, I never meant to disparage
the quality of Russian equipment or capabilities of Russian soldiers.
Nevertheless, I prefer that if ISrael is forced into war again, I think
it is better that it is generally better if it is going up against Russian
equipment than American or French.
Your absolutely legitimate right. I would add also the russian equipment
of the same generation as US one used by Israel.
Post by JGB
But I could be wrong. BTW, thanks for
admitting that the Russians were manning Egyptian SAM batteries and even
flying some of EGypt's aircraft.
You are wellcome. Although I was talking about Syria where S-200
SAMs were manned by our crews and for the relatively short time
nov/82- jan/83. In Egypt, as far as I know, russian pilots flew
only recon Mig-25 missions over Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.<
"Poor Arabs?" So how are these poor ARabs going to pay for your Russian
equipment, with oil?
Some how. Why not with oil?<
How well did they pay from Iraq, Syria and EGypt? Were they good payers?
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it.
I am not jew hater. Although equally I see no reasons to be
a jew lover.<
Don't love us, don't hate us. We have no bad blood anymore with Russia
or Poland or anybody in Europe. That is in the past. Our struggle with
the Arabs is our own affair, and I would like very much if there was a
TOTAL EMBARGO of ALL ARMS to the MIDDLE EAST, including ISrael and the
Muslim states, especially those that do not recognize ISrael.
Your business with the Chechens, or Georgians, or whoemever, is your
business, and I don't think ISrael interferes. In fact, Israel does
business with some Russian defense companies from time to time. ISrael
only asks for normal, hate-free relations, and nothing more.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Even if so, which I strongly doubt. What's for? We are
not going to bomb Israel in that tragic case. Most probably
we will offer our help to evacuate as much of
jew civilian population as possible from former Israel.<
Why? DO you want the Jews back? I don't think so. I'm sorry that you
feel that JEws don't have a right to their tiny country, even though
you were not happy with Jews in your history. LEt the Arabs take care
of themselves. What is your business? There are not enough Arabs? They
don't have enough oil money? We have our struggle for existence with the
Arabs, and if the world stayed out of it we'd have come to some kind
of settlement sooner than later. WE could have defeated Egypt and had
a peace treaty sooner. We could have defeated Syria and have had a peace
treaty with them sooner. The interference of the world has only made things
worse for Israel, and the Arabs. By fueling an arms race on both sides, the
costs of the conflict, and the inevitable destructiveness could get worse.
Best thing would be for ALL SIDES to get OUT of the Middle East altogether.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments.
Which sentiments? If someone says that Israel has no
right to loss even a minor battle he/she is certainly
antisemite. Right? Nice logic indicating only
your inferiority complex. Everybody must love jews, right?<
You said yourself that ISrael cannot lose a battle without losing its
existence. I understand exactly what you meant, and I don't take your
offer to evacuate the Jews of ISrael back to Russia very seriously.
Even if you meant it, most of the Jews would be dead long before any
flotilla of aircraft or ships came to evacuate us would be organized.
It is all silly talk. But the Arabs are very serious in their desire to
eliminate the JEwish state, and Jews are equally serious in their determination
to defend it and to bring the world down with us if we fail to defend it
successfully. So the best thing is, don't come to save us, and don't be eager
to see our defeat. Best thing is for everyone to leave us all alone to deal
with our own problems in the region. As Scharansky, a former citizen of the
USSR and a present minister in Israel has said, we are prepared to give the
Palestinians all they need, except the power to hurt us. If they want peace,
they can have it. But if they want the power to harm us, that they will not
get, including a state to harm us with. They have to decide if they want peace
or pain. JEws will not let themselves be killed for the Arabs to feel at peace.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
That's why Israel won't be going down alone.
Trust me on this.
I trust you. The question is for how long?
Michael
Michael Petukhov
2003-09-10 08:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Well, since my father was in the Red Army in WWII, I never meant to disparage
the quality of Russian equipment or capabilities of Russian soldiers.
Nevertheless, I prefer that if ISrael is forced into war again, I think
it is better that it is generally better if it is going up against Russian
equipment than American or French.
Your absolutely legitimate right. I would add also the russian equipment
of the same generation as US one used by Israel.
Post by JGB
But I could be wrong. BTW, thanks for
admitting that the Russians were manning Egyptian SAM batteries and even
flying some of EGypt's aircraft.
You are wellcome. Although I was talking about Syria where S-200
SAMs were manned by our crews and for the relatively short time
nov/82- jan/83. In Egypt, as far as I know, russian pilots flew
only recon Mig-25 missions over Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.<
"Poor Arabs?" So how are these poor ARabs going to pay for your Russian
equipment, with oil?
Some how. Why not with oil?<
How well did they pay from Iraq, Syria and EGypt? Were they good payers?
It is not that they were bad payers. It was the problem of Soviet goverment
who was having mainly ideological goals in mind and did not really ask
for payment. imagine they seriousely thought about socialism in arab contries!
It is over fortunately. And now we get cash for all equipment we sell to arabs and
elsethere.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it.
I am not jew hater. Although equally I see no reasons to be
a jew lover.<
Don't love us, don't hate us.
deal!
Post by JGB
We have no bad blood anymore with Russia
or Poland or anybody in Europe. That is in the past. Our struggle with
the Arabs is our own affair, and I would like very much if there was a
TOTAL EMBARGO of ALL ARMS to the MIDDLE EAST, including ISrael and the
Muslim states, especially those that do not recognize ISrael.
Your business with the Chechens, or Georgians, or whoemever, is your
business, and I don't think ISrael interferes. In fact, Israel does
business with some Russian defense companies from time to time. ISrael
only asks for normal, hate-free relations, and nothing more.
Well sounds reasonable. personaly I would be 100% agree.
Unfortunately in the world of real politics only interests do
matter. What are the objective current russian interests in Israel?
Easy answer. To keep current situation of no war, no peace
for as long as possible. Why? Because israel is a client of
our main politcal opponent for now and for forecastable
future. Arab-Israel conflict effectively blocks US efforts
to control Arab oil. That's why. On the other hand
There is nothing good for us if arabs will finally destroy
Israel. US problems would disappeared then. They would
be capable make a deal with arabs against our interests.
That's the reason why USSR and Russia never
supply arabs with new enough equipment to defeat Israel
army eqippped with latest US made versions. I think
all sides always knew that. The only thing is that
it is not publicly accepted to talk about this openly.
However it is the reality on the ground.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Even if so, which I strongly doubt. What's for? We are
not going to bomb Israel in that tragic case. Most probably
we will offer our help to evacuate as much of
jew civilian population as possible from former Israel.<
Why? DO you want the Jews back? I don't think so.
Sure. why not? Good, smart, well educated people.
Many of my professors were jews. I think it was big
mistake for many who moved to Israel during last
10-15 years. BTW many have return and happy.
Post by JGB
I'm sorry that you
feel that JEws don't have a right to their tiny country, even though
you were not happy with Jews in your history.
Who said I am not. jews contribution to russian culture is
huge in all areas. I would like they continue that here
slowly assimilating with the rest of russian population.

also it is not they don't have rights. The general world situation,
place of this tiny country and our 100% objective interests
assisgn russia on the arab side in Arab-israel conflict.
Post by JGB
LEt the Arabs take care
of themselves. What is your business? There are not enough Arabs? They
don't have enough oil money? We have our struggle for existence with the
Arabs, and if the world stayed out of it we'd have come to some kind
of settlement sooner than later. WE could have defeated Egypt and had
a peace treaty sooner. We could have defeated Syria and have had a peace
treaty with them sooner. The interference of the world has only made things
worse for Israel, and the Arabs. By fueling an arms race on both sides, the
costs of the conflict, and the inevitable destructiveness could get worse.
Best thing would be for ALL SIDES to get OUT of the Middle East altogether.
Sounds good. But you know it is not technically possible. stakes
are too high for everybody. Would americans agree to leave?
I do not think so. So do europeans and russians.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments.
Which sentiments? If someone says that Israel has no
right to loss even a minor battle he/she is certainly
antisemite. Right? Nice logic indicating only
your inferiority complex. Everybody must love jews, right?<
You said yourself that ISrael cannot lose a battle without losing its
existence. I understand exactly what you meant, and I don't take your
offer to evacuate the Jews of ISrael back to Russia very seriously.
Well. I did not mean evacation to Russia. Certainly many would
decide to go europe or US.
Post by JGB
Even if you meant it, most of the Jews would be dead long before any
flotilla of aircraft or ships came to evacuate us would be organized.
It is all silly talk. But the Arabs are very serious in their desire to
eliminate the JEwish state, and Jews are equally serious in their determination
to defend it and to bring the world down with us if we fail to defend it
successfully.
Are you serious? It is a sort of novelty for me. Do many israelis
share that kind of barbaric views?
Post by JGB
So the best thing is, don't come to save us, and don't be eager
to see our defeat.
I told you no war not peace is the best solution for us. But would be
possible in along run? I do not know. Perhaps not.
Post by JGB
Best thing is for everyone to leave us all alone to deal
with our own problems in the region. As Scharansky, a former citizen of the
USSR and a present minister in Israel has said, we are prepared to give the
Palestinians all they need, except the power to hurt us. If they want peace,
they can have it. But if they want the power to harm us, that they will not
get, including a state to harm us with. They have to decide if they want peace
or pain. JEws will not let themselves be killed for the Arabs to feel at peace.
All these dreams, groundless dreams only. Ask yourself what ais a good reason
to arabs to make real long term peace with Israel? None as far as I can see.
Put yourself onto their place. Imagine you are a memeber of huge 500 mil
jews population. Saddenly a tiny small nation appeared from nothere
took your land, took holly places, took everything it wanted and now
offers a peace deal. Would you agree? The problem not only the
different culture, religion or history. Your tiny size is the main problem.
It is very provoking itself. Clearly jews must join somebody much
bigger and stronger. I would suggest russians. But I know many would
prefer US or Europe. But being on its own is not an option for israel.

Also jews return in a wrong time. They should came 100 years
before that. maybe than they would have some small chances for peace.
but the oil... and also in second part of 20-th century arabs entered into
active transformation phase. If they can produce capable
effective leaders... israel would have enough... I am not even sure
if russia with all its nukes and huge resources would be capable
to survive in that case. We are still quite close to that area.

Michael
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
That's why Israel won't be going down alone.
Trust me on this.
I trust you. The question is for how long?
Michael
JGB
2003-09-11 00:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Some how. Why not with oil?<
How well did they pay from Iraq, Syria and EGypt? Were they good payers?
It is not that they were bad payers. It was the problem of Soviet goverment
who was having mainly ideological goals in mind and did not really ask
for payment. imagine they seriousely thought about socialism in arab contries!
It is over fortunately. And now we get cash for all equipment we sell to arabs and
elsethere.<
It was nonsense to think about Socialism ANYWHERE, including Russia,
Israel or the Arab countries! Some Jewish ideas were very good, and
some Jewish ideas were VERY bad! Communism was a VERY BAD idea for
everyone! But, let's not forget that Karl Marx's parents were converts
Christianity so technically, under JEwish Law, Karl Marx was not a
Jew.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it.
I am not jew hater. Although equally I see no reasons to be
a jew lover.<
Don't love us, don't hate us.
deal!
Post by JGB
We have no bad blood anymore with Russia
or Poland or anybody in Europe. That is in the past. Our struggle with
the Arabs is our own affair, and I would like very much if there was a
TOTAL EMBARGO of ALL ARMS to the MIDDLE EAST, including ISrael and the
Muslim states, especially those that do not recognize ISrael.
Your business with the Chechens, or Georgians, or whoemever, is your
business, and I don't think ISrael interferes. In fact, Israel does
business with some Russian defense companies from time to time. ISrael
only asks for normal, hate-free relations, and nothing more.<
Well sounds reasonable. personaly I would be 100% agree.
Unfortunately in the world of real politics only interests do
matter. What are the objective current russian interests in Israel? <
Well, the recent Phalcon AWACs deal to China, that the US nixed and
did not permit ISrael to go through with, was to use a Russian
aircraft
as the platform. There were also opponents in the Russian defense
companies
that wanted to sell AN ALL Russian AWACs to China, and I think did in
the
end, if I'm not mistaken, even though the Chinese preferred the
Israeli
radars and avionics. There is some limited cooperation beween ISraeli
and Russian companies. Sure, the Israeli market is only 1/10th the
Arab
market, and in theory it makes sense to court the Arab countries. But
the
reality is not always the same as theory. But, Israel has other big
countries
to do business with, such as India in software, military and
agriculture.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Easy answer. To keep current situation of no war, no peace
for as long as possible. Why? Because israel is a client of
our main politcal opponent for now and for forecastable
future.<
The US is not a political opponent of Russia. It is the SAVIOR of the
Russian
people, having FREED THEM from COMMUNISM! The Russian people are
finally free!
But the economics will have to follow as trade and good institutions
inside
Russia continue to grow, hopefully. Why do you see the US a political
opponent
of a democratic Russia today?
Post by Michael Petukhov
Arab-Israel conflict effectively blocks US efforts
to control Arab oil. That's why.<
Nonsense. Anyway, oil has maybe another 20 to 30 years left when it
will be
left behind as was coal.
Post by Michael Petukhov
On the other hand
There is nothing good for us if arabs will finally destroy
Israel. US problems would disappeared then. They would
be capable make a deal with arabs against our interests.
That's the reason why USSR and Russia never
supply arabs with new enough equipment to defeat Israel
army eqippped with latest US made versions. <
The Arabs could never defeat Israel except with atomic bombs, because
Israel has its own nuclear deterrent. What it can do is give Israel
much
trouble with terror. Terrorism is really the only way Arabs know how
to fight
effectively, and the main reason for the "war against terror" is to
keep
terrorists from getting weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Imagine
what
Chechens or Palestinians could do with an atomic bomb?
Post by Michael Petukhov
think
all sides always knew that. The only thing is that
it is not publicly accepted to talk about this openly.
However it is the reality on the ground.<
You can talk about whatever you want. The internet is free.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Even if so, which I strongly doubt. What's for? We are
not going to bomb Israel in that tragic case. Most probably
we will offer our help to evacuate as much of
jew civilian population as possible from former Israel.<
Why? DO you want the Jews back? I don't think so.
Sure. why not? Good, smart, well educated people.
Many of my professors were jews. I think it was big
mistake for many who moved to Israel during last
10-15 years. BTW many have return and happy.<
Well Israel is free and Jews can come and go. They had a time leaving
Russia
during the Brezhnev era, but now they can come and go as legally
permitted
by both sides, which is fairly free. Many Russians who came to ISrael
weren't
really Jews in the first place, but were partly related to Jews who
came.
Naturally, due to difficult conditions in Israel, and because many
really
didn't have a strong Jewish connection, many have returned to Russia.
That's
okay too. Many Russian Jews brought a great deal of technology,
science, music
and art to Israel, as well as Russian military technology. So they've
been
quite important to ISrael's development in the last 20 years.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
I'm sorry that you
feel that JEws don't have a right to their tiny country, even though
you were not happy with Jews in your history.
Who said I am not. jews contribution to russian culture is
huge in all areas. I would like they continue that here
slowly assimilating with the rest of russian population. <
To "assimilate" means to intermarry and become what, Christians?
Russians?
Racism is racism, and those who want and are accepted might
"assimilate" and
others may not be able to even if they wanted to. So there is a Jewish
state
just as there is a GEorgian state or Armenian state. Maybe if Stalin
had
stayed in Georgia Russia might have been better off. Maybe if there
was an
Israel 100 years ago, both Russia and the JEws would have both been
better off.
Post by Michael Petukhov
also it is not they don't have rights. The general world situation,
place of this tiny country and our 100% objective interests
assisgn russia on the arab side in Arab-israel conflict.<
If they want to, that's their business. And will be their loss too.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
LEt the Arabs take care
of themselves. What is your business? There are not enough Arabs? They
don't have enough oil money? We have our struggle for existence with the
Arabs, and if the world stayed out of it we'd have come to some kind
of settlement sooner than later. WE could have defeated Egypt and had
a peace treaty sooner. We could have defeated Syria and have had a peace
treaty with them sooner. The interference of the world has only made things
worse for Israel, and the Arabs. By fueling an arms race on both sides, the
costs of the conflict, and the inevitable destructiveness could get worse.
Best thing would be for ALL SIDES to get OUT of the Middle East altogether.
Sounds good. But you know it is not technically possible. stakes
are too high for everybody. Would americans agree to leave?
I do not think so. So do europeans and russians.<
Well, Israel has military technology to sell too. What if Israel sold
missiles
to Latvia, for example? Or to Cuba? Israel won't do such things, but
it has
the technology and power to do so if it were so inclined. Don't
forget, Jews
gave the atomic bomb to both the US and Russia. Don't forget that.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments.
Which sentiments? If someone says that Israel has no
right to loss even a minor battle he/she is certainly
antisemite. Right? Nice logic indicating only
your inferiority complex. Everybody must love jews, right?<
You said yourself that ISrael cannot lose a battle without losing its
existence. I understand exactly what you meant, and I don't take your
offer to evacuate the Jews of ISrael back to Russia very seriously.
Well. I did not mean evacation to Russia. Certainly many would
decide to go europe or US.<
They must ask permission to go to Europe or the US. And why should
they?
Jews have their own national soil in Israel. Why do they have to ask
favors
from others to live in their countries?
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Even if you meant it, most of the Jews would be dead long before any
flotilla of aircraft or ships came to evacuate us would be organized.
It is all silly talk. But the Arabs are very serious in their desire to
eliminate the JEwish state, and Jews are equally serious in their determination
to defend it and to bring the world down with us if we fail to defend it
successfully.
Are you serious? It is a sort of novelty for me. Do many israelis
share that kind of barbaric views?<
All! Why should the world exist if we can't? THey have more right to
this
God-created earth than we do? Why should they live while we die? We
have the
ability to destroy the planet if we go down. Why shouldn't we?
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
So the best thing is, don't come to save us, and don't be eager
to see our defeat. <
I told you no war not peace is the best solution for us. But would be
possible in along run? I do not know. Perhaps not.<
We don't care what's the best solution FOR YOU. WE care what's the
best solution
for US.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Best thing is for everyone to leave us all alone to deal
with our own problems in the region. As Scharansky, a former citizen of the
USSR and a present minister in Israel has said, we are prepared to give the
Palestinians all they need, except the power to hurt us. If they want peace,
they can have it. But if they want the power to harm us, that they will not
get, including a state to harm us with. They have to decide if they want peace
or pain. JEws will not let themselves be killed for the Arabs to feel at peace.
All these dreams, groundless dreams only. Ask yourself what ais a good reason
to arabs to make real long term peace with Israel? None as far as I can see.<
You're right. That's why there's no peace. They still feel they can
destroy
us, so why make a final peace? That's why we're working hard to see
to it
that THEY will be destroyed, and the whole planet will be destroyed if
they
succeed in hitting us hard. Why do you think Bush went to Iraq? To get
oil?
Ha! To save the Arabs from being destroyed by ISrael!!!
Post by Michael Petukhov
Put yourself onto their place. Imagine you are a memeber of huge 500 mil
jews population. Saddenly a tiny small nation appeared from nothere
took your land, took holly places, took everything it wanted and now
offers a peace deal. Would you agree? <
That little place is not Arab land, not Christian land, not Polish
land, not
Muslim land, not British nor Ukrainian land. That is Jewish land for
the
Jewish nation and it will be defended to the death, not only of us,
but of
the Arabs and maybe even you too. Because unlike the HOlocaust, we're
definitely
not going down alone this time. Too lonely. We want your company next
time.
Post by Michael Petukhov
The problem not only the
different culture, religion or history. Your tiny size is the main problem.<
No, their big size is their problem, and your Russian big size is your
problem
too. We are a small target. Israel has the best antiballistic missile
(ABM)
system in the world. Every missile that comes in our direction must
come in
into a very small cone. Our air and space defenses are already the
most concentrated
and best in the world. The US helped fund our Arrow II ABM system in
order
to CIRCUMVENT THE US-RUSSIAN ABM TREATY of 1972! By it being an
Israeli missile,
the US and Israel were able to combine their technologies and
knowledge. Israel
will soon be able to defend against HUNDREDS of incoming warheads. And
our
latest Jericho missiles are rapidly UPGRADABLE to capabilities to hit
as
far as Moscow and St. Petersburg, if necessary. So if you send a
hundred
warheads in our direction, first make sure your own air defense system
in
St. Petersburg and around Moscow will be able to intercept a dozen
bombs
heading in their direction as well. As you said, many Jews were your
professors.
Be sure that you know who you're dealing with before you do anything
stupid.
Post by Michael Petukhov
It is very provoking itself. Clearly jews must join somebody much
bigger and stronger. I would suggest russians. But I know many would
prefer US or Europe. But being on its own is not an option for israel.<
You were strong because we helped make you strong. We don't need to be
big,
There are many big countries who will work with us, sometimes
secretly, such
as India or China, as well as the US, and yes sometimes Russia. My
father was
a master sargeant in Red Army. He used to tell me the Russian proverb
how
a fly once brought down a bear. Sometimes the small outlive the big,
and even
help bring them down. It is hard for a bear to kill a fly, and a fly
to kill
a bear. Best thing is that they don't bother with each too much.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Also jews return in a wrong time. They should came 100 years
before that. maybe than they would have some small chances for peace.
but the oil... and also in second part of 20-th century arabs entered into
active transformation phase. If they can produce capable
effective leaders... israel would have enough... I am not even sure
if russia with all its nukes and huge resources would be capable
to survive in that case. We are still quite close to that area. >
The oil is nothing. The Arabs will choke on it. Because of oil they
haven't
learned to do much else very productive. Already they try to sneak
into Israel
by the tens of thousands to seek illegal work. Depending on oil is a
very
slippery business :) The Arabs might slip and fall on their ass. I
think they already have.
zolota
2003-09-11 05:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by JGB
SNIP
The US is not a political opponent of Russia. It is the SAVIOR of the
Russian
people, having FREED THEM from COMMUNISM! The Russian people are
finally free!
But the economics will have to follow as trade and good institutions
inside
Russia continue to grow, hopefully. Why do you see the US a political
opponent
of a democratic Russia today?
What utter crap. No Russian owes a favour to the US. The communist party
destroyed itself. Now Shrub is in place to destroy the US.

Z
JGB
2003-09-11 14:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by zolota
Post by JGB
SNIP
The US is not a political opponent of Russia. It is the SAVIOR of the
Russian
people, having FREED THEM from COMMUNISM! The Russian people are
finally free!
But the economics will have to follow as trade and good institutions
inside
Russia continue to grow, hopefully. Why do you see the US a political
opponent
of a democratic Russia today?
What utter crap. No Russian owes a favour to the US. The communist party
destroyed itself. Now Shrub is in place to destroy the US.<
As far back as the 1890's, over 100 years ago and long before the Bolshevik
revolution, Republican conservitives in America said the Communism, if
it were ever implemented anywhere, would fail and destroy many in the
process. America was right BEFORE the Bolshevik revolution, and certainly
right again when it finally burned itself out 70 years after it began.
God Bless America, may it always be on the side of Righteousness.
Michael Petukhov
2003-09-11 13:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Some how. Why not with oil?<
How well did they pay from Iraq, Syria and EGypt? Were they good payers?
It is not that they were bad payers. It was the problem of Soviet goverment
who was having mainly ideological goals in mind and did not really ask
for payment. imagine they seriousely thought about socialism in arab contries!
It is over fortunately. And now we get cash for all equipment we sell to arabs and
elsethere.<
It was nonsense to think about Socialism ANYWHERE, including Russia,
Disagree. Modern capitalism is trap as was burocratic socialism of
Stalin style. However I think if human civilization has any long future
it is one or yet another form of communism. Although much more
likely there will be no future at all. There are too many monkeys
among humans everythere.
Post by JGB
Well, Israel has military technology to sell too. What if Israel sold
missiles
to Latvia, for example? Or to Cuba? Israel won't do such things, but
it has
the technology and power to do so if it were so inclined. Don't
forget, Jews
gave the atomic bomb to both the US and Russia. Don't forget that.
Who cares about Latvia, also I hope Israel has much more important
things to do than blackmailing russians. Moreover it tries to sell it stuff
whenever it is possible and its mater (US) allows it.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Well. I did not mean evacation to Russia. Certainly many would
decide to go europe or US.<
They must ask permission to go to Europe or the US. And why should
they?
Jews have their own national soil in Israel. Why do they have to ask
favors
from others to live in their countries?
Why? I though we were talking about what if Irael lost a single
minor battle. Right? That's why.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Even if you meant it, most of the Jews would be dead long before any
flotilla of aircraft or ships came to evacuate us would be organized.
It is all silly talk. But the Arabs are very serious in their desire to
eliminate the JEwish state, and Jews are equally serious in their determination
to defend it and to bring the world down with us if we fail to defend it
successfully.
Are you serious? It is a sort of novelty for me. Do many israelis
share that kind of barbaric views?<
All! Why should the world exist if we can't? THey have more right to
this
God-created earth than we do? Why should they live while we die? We
have the
ability to destroy the planet if we go down. Why shouldn't we?
Why should you extend your problems to others? Arabs are your problem
and nobody's else. If you care only about jews which is ultranationalism by
itself why should israel jews destroy jews living elsethere? In russia for
instance. Although frankly I do not believe that ALL israel people share
your views on that matters. ALL never share anything particularly views.
More over if you think you would change your mind.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
So the best thing is, don't come to save us, and don't be eager
to see our defeat. <
I told you no war not peace is the best solution for us. But would be
possible in along run? I do not know. Perhaps not.<
We don't care what's the best solution FOR YOU. WE care what's the
best solution
for US.
For US? that's true. not for you. The best for you would be to return
to your real home, which as I understand is russia.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
The problem not only the
different culture, religion or history. Your tiny size is the main problem.<
No, their big size is their problem, and your Russian big size is your
problem
too. We are a small target.
???
Post by JGB
Israel has the best antiballistic missile
(ABM)
system in the world. Every missile that comes in our direction must
come in
into a very small cone. Our air and space defenses are already the
most concentrated
and best in the world. The US helped fund our Arrow II ABM system in
order
to CIRCUMVENT THE US-RUSSIAN ABM TREATY of 1972! By it being an
Israeli missile,
the US and Israel were able to combine their technologies and
knowledge. Israel
will soon be able to defend against HUNDREDS of incoming warheads. And
our
latest Jericho missiles are rapidly UPGRADABLE to capabilities to hit
as
far as Moscow and St. Petersburg, if necessary. So if you send a
hundred
warheads in our direction, first make sure your own air defense system
in
St. Petersburg and around Moscow will be able to intercept a dozen
bombs
heading in their direction as well. As you said, many Jews were your
professors.
Be sure that you know who you're dealing with before you do anything
stupid.
Sounds similar to US claims about its patriots success in 1991
who according to recent official reports was not capable to intercept
a single outdated SCUD. See paper below. I hope you understand
what Science is, don't you?:

Science (1999) v284, p417-418:

Patriots Missed, But Criticisms Hit Home

by James Glanz

... "Patriot is proof positive that missile defense works," said
President George Bush during the 1991 Gulf War. At the time,
Army assessments painted the antimissile system as all but perfect
at intercepting Iraqi Scud missiles. But the Patriot received quite
different reviews from two Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
researchers who analyzed commercial video footage of intercept attempts.
They said there was no evidence of a single successful intercept during
the Gulf War (Science, 8 November 1991, p. 791).

Now a team of physicists and engineers has concluded that the video
analysis was probably correct. The team was assembled by the American
Physical Society's Panel on Public Affairs (POPA) and was led by
Jeremiah Sullivan, a physicist and former director of the Program in
Arms Control, Disarmament, and International Security at the University
of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. Accepted for publication at the journal
Science & Global Security, the team's report analyzes all of the
technical criticisms raised against the video evidence. It concludes
that those criticisms are "without merit" and goes on to identify
"an absolute contradiction" between the Army's scoring of Patriot
performance and that video record.

Raytheon Co., the prime contractor for the Patriots used in the Gulf War,
has already prepared a rebuttal, which is tentatively scheduled for
a subsequent issue of the Princeton-based journal, according to its
editor, Hal Feiveson. And the POPA study says nothing directly about
the future prospects of the Patriot system, which has been redesigned
entirely. But Theodore Postol, one of the MIT researchers, says that
the Patriot affair may bode ill for plans to develop more expansive
missile defenses to protect soldiers and the country as a whole (see
main text). It reflects what he sees as a culture of exaggeration
and cover-up that "has a corrupting effect on every aspect of
weapons development."

To one degree or another, everyone describes the Patriot as overmatched
in its bid to destroy the Scuds. The Gulf War Patriot "was built to
intercept airplanes, not missiles," says Brigadier General Daniel L.
Montgomery, the U.S. Army's Program Executive Officer, Air and Missile
Defense. Traveling at speeds of up to 1.5 kilometers per second, the
single-stage Patriot missile homed in on enemy aircraft using ground-based
radar, then exploded near the aircraft. By the late 1980s, the system had
been adapted to missile defense largely through software changes, and
such refinements continued during the Gulf War. But the souped-up Scuds,
called Al-Husseins, reentered the atmosphere at about 2.3 kilometers
per second, and they often broke up, creating showers of confusing debris
from which the warhead would emerge, corkscrewing to the ground.

"The Patriot had no chance, no chance against such a target," says
George Lewis, associate director of MIT's Security Studies Program. But
U.S. officials initially claimed astonishing results. "The Patriot's
success, of course, is known to everyone," said General H. Norman Schwarzkopf
on 30 January 1991. "It's 100%--so far, of 33 engaged, there have been 33
destroyed."

That certainty soon began to crumble, even by official accounts. Under
criticism by the U.S. General Accounting Office and other agencies that
examined the Army data, the Army revised its success estimates from 96% in
March 1991; to 69% in May 1991; to 59% in April 1992, when Representative
John Conyers (D-MI) led a congressional inquiry into the Patriot's
performance. Those final numbers, which include estimates of better than
70% success in Saudi Arabia and 40% in Israel, have not budged officially.

According to an analysis published in 1993 by Postol and Lewis and
discussed at the Conyers inquiry, however, those numbers were not even
close to reality. While the Army based its assessment mostly on
inspecting ground damage after the war, Postol and Lewis found
commercial videos (often from news organizations) of more than half
of the approximately 44 Scuds engaged by Patriots. After taking into
account unknowns such as viewing angle and distance and using fixed
reference points such as the bright Patriot fireball to compensate
for camera movement, the team found no evidence of even one successful
intercept.

The video analysis, in turn, was repeatedly attacked as flawed by Robert
Stein, now a Raytheon vice president, Peter Zimmerman, a physicist
who was recently named science adviser to the U.S. Arms Control and
Disarmament Agency, and others. Criticisms centered on the slow
video-framing rates--which left 0.033-second gaps in the data--the
difficulties of reconstructing three-dimensional events from the videos,
and the possibility that Postol and Lewis had consistently misidentified
the Scud warheads.

Now the six-member POPA panel has determined that Postol and Lewis
correctly accounted for the limitations of the videos. Addressing a
long list of criticisms, the panel found that Postol and Lewis had
made proper assumptions about the physics and were not likely to have
made major blunders like misidentifying warheads. "We don't claim that
in every single case they have to be right," says Sullivan. "But being
wrong here or there doesn't change the overall physical consistency.
It's not a matter of onesies and twosies."

Stein and Zimmerman, who wrote the forthcoming "comment" on the POPA
study, both declined to respond for this article. But Brigadier
General Montgomery says, "Video footage showing less than full
destruction of the Scud does not mean [it] was not deflected off its
intended target." Postol responds that there is no way to know just
where the highly inaccurate Scuds were going in the first place,
let alone whether anything deflected them.

The POPA panel has recommended that a third party undertake a joint
study using the still-classified Army data and the videos. But with
Raytheon turning up as the prime contractor for the "kill vehicle" of
the proposed national missile defense, Postol warns that the Patriot
episode raises more than technical questions. "Denial of failure
leads to institutionalized failure," he says. "And the message, loud
and clear, was 'We don't care about the truth.' " ...
The Black Monk
2003-09-11 20:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Petukhov
Are you serious? It is a sort of novelty for me. Do many israelis
share that kind of barbaric views?<
All! Why should the world exist if we can't? THey have more right to this
God-created earth than we do? Why should they live while we die? We
have the ability to destroy the planet if we go down. Why shouldn't we?
...cut...
You're right. That's why there's no peace. They still feel they can
destroy us, so why make a final peace? That's why we're working hard to see
to it that THEY will be destroyed, and the whole planet will be destroyed if
they
succeed in hitting us hard.
WOW! If indeed all Israelis share your attitude, this would make
Israel a far greater threat to humanity than Al Queda or 500 million
Muslims. So if 8 million (or whatever) Jews die, it's okay to kill
billions of innocent people. Because a few millon Jews die, it's okay
to kill hundreds of millions of children. I've never been to Israel,
but many friends have. The overall impression is that the Israelis
and Palestinians truly deserve each other. Actually there is
something of a Hitlerian attitude in this desire to bring the world
down with oneself, undertandable given that Israel is largely a
fascist state. Hitler, after all, got a lot of perverse pleasure from
bringing all of Europe down with him. Perhaps if indeed all Israelis
thought as you do, the Jews and the Nazi noveau-barbarians deserved
each other as well?

Fortunately I doubt that all Israelis think as you do. And I know
that most non-Israeli Jews don't think as you do. A close friend of
the family, a very well known and successful Jewish physician who was
a sixteen yeat old Soviet soldier in the second world war, was in
Israel once, for a conference. It was his last time, because he saw
first hand what a fascist state it was.

BM
JGB
2003-09-12 16:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Black Monk
Post by Michael Petukhov
Are you serious? It is a sort of novelty for me. Do many israelis
share that kind of barbaric views?<
All! Why should the world exist if we can't? THey have more right to this
God-created earth than we do? Why should they live while we die? We
have the ability to destroy the planet if we go down. Why shouldn't we?
...cut...
You're right. That's why there's no peace. They still feel they can
destroy us, so why make a final peace? That's why we're working hard to see
to it that THEY will be destroyed, and the whole planet will be destroyed if
they
succeed in hitting us hard.
WOW! If indeed all Israelis share your attitude, this would make
Israel a far greater threat to humanity than Al Queda or 500 million
Muslims. <
Good. I hope so.
Post by The Black Monk
So if 8 million (or whatever) Jews die, it's okay to kill
billions of innocent people. Because a few millon Jews die, it's okay
to kill hundreds of millions of children. I've never been to Israel,
but many friends have. The overall impression is that the Israelis
and Palestinians truly deserve each other.<
You take the Palestinians. We have no more room for savages. Go put them
in Chechnya together with your other terrorists friends.
Post by The Black Monk
Actually there is
something of a Hitlerian attitude in this desire to bring the world
down with oneself, undertandable given that Israel is largely a
fascist state. <
Still not fascist enough.
Post by The Black Monk
Hitler, after all, got a lot of perverse pleasure from
bringing all of Europe down with him. Perhaps if indeed all Israelis
thought as you do, the Jews and the Nazi noveau-barbarians deserved
each other as well?<
Stalin was better? Hitler and Stalin deserved each other.
Post by The Black Monk
Fortunately I doubt that all Israelis think as you do. And I know
that most non-Israeli Jews don't think as you do. A close friend of
the family, a very well known and successful Jewish physician who was
a sixteen yeat old Soviet soldier in the second world war, was in
Israel once, for a conference. It was his last time, because he saw
first hand what a fascist state it was.<
Good. I want a fascist Jewish state for a change. It's our turn to be
barbarians. Why not? Why should Goyim have all the fun in slaughtering
Jews? Why shouldn't Jews have the same fun slaughtering their enemies?
My father fought in the Red Army. I knew many Jews who fought with the
partisans. So, what for. They fought for their own lives and to get away
from there afterwards, for the most part. ONly the Commie Jews stayed
behind.

Boris Goodenough
2003-09-09 18:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
That's good news.
What? US and Israel lied it never lost many of their best planes
and pilots is good news for you?<
We know how well the Soviet air defense system did
when the Germans attacked in WWII, and how easily Israel defeated Russian
air defenses employed by the Arabs in previous wars.
What I was talking was russian batteries under russian personel control. Arabs
is a different story. <
Well, since my father was in the Red Army in WWII, I never meant to disparage
the quality of Russian equipment or capabilities of Russian soldiers.
Nevertheless, I prefer that if ISrael is forced into war again, I think
it is better that it is generally better if it is going up against Russian
equipment than American or French.
Your absolutely legitimate right. I would add also the russian equipment
of the same generation as US one used by Israel.
Post by JGB
But I could be wrong. BTW, thanks for
admitting that the Russians were manning Egyptian SAM batteries and even
flying some of EGypt's aircraft.
You are wellcome. Although I was talking about Syria where S-200
SAMs were manned by our crews and for the relatively short time
nov/82- jan/83. In Egypt, as far as I know, russian pilots flew
only recon Mig-25 missions over Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Although clearly Israel can win as many wars as it can
against poor arabs but if it losses only one it will be totaly destroyed for ever.<
"Poor Arabs?" So how are these poor ARabs going to pay for your Russian
equipment, with oil?
Some how. Why not with oil?
Only you would come up with a stupid answer like that.
Post by Michael Petukhov
Post by JGB
As for its losing once, it won't do so without taking many
Jew haters down with it.
I am not jew hater. Although equally I see no reasons to be
a jew lover.
Post by JGB
That's why it has missiles even capable of reaching
FAR, FAR into the NORTH as well.
Even if so, which I strongly doubt. What's for? We are
not going to bomb Israel in that tragic case. Most probably
we will offer our help to evacuate as much of
jew civilian population as possible from former Israel.
Post by JGB
Post by Michael Petukhov
Not bad perspectives for its population...<
WE understand YOUR sentiments.
Which sentiments? If someone says that Israel has no
right to loss even a minor battle he/she is certainly
antisemite. Right? Nice logic indicating only
your inferiority complex. Everybody must love jews, right?
Post by JGB
That's why Israel won't be going down alone.
Trust me on this.
I trust you. The question is for how long?
Michael
Jack White
2003-09-08 08:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Passerby
That's alright. Russians are famous for their Surface-to-Air missiles.
However in order to harm
USAF or IAF planes they need Surface-to-Airplane missiles and they have a
serious trouble developing those.
Dude, you're living in a DREAM WORLD.
The Russians/Soviets were always the BEST at ballistic missiles, Sams,
ABM systems , etc, they were even better than the USA at those things.
Even now, Moscow has the best ABM/SAM/AAA air defense network of any
city on earth.
Russian SAMS have KICKED The Israeli Air Force's ass before and
there's no reason they can't do it again.
The Soviet SA-6 Sam ROCKED THE IAF's world during the Yom Kippur War.
The IAF was SO AFRAID of the SA-6 that it was the IDF ground forces
who had to take out as many of the SA-6 batteries as possible since
the IAF was to scared to take on the SA-6.
Here's a good quote that shows what Russian sams can do even to great
pilots like Israeli IAF pilots.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_41.html

"On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites,
but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6
Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also
equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery.
The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms
and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of
their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis
were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over
Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff
Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in
mid-afternoon."

That's RIGHT, the SA-6 sam as well as Russian AAA was so effective
that even TINY LITTLE SYRIA shot down 36 IAF aircraft IN A SINGLE DAY.
I was reading another article on the Yom Kippur war, and I read that
there were 23 SA-6 Sam batteries in Syria before the war, and by the
END OF THE WAR, the IAF was ONLY ABLE to take out 3 of those 23 Sam
Batteries.
The IDF ground forces did take out a few more of those sam batteries,
but the SA-6 was the CLEAR winner against IAF pilots during the Yom
Kippur War.
Dude, Israel is NOT the USA.
The USA is INVINCIBLE, while Israel is a mortal.

Israel was able to defeat the SA-6 in the 80s in Lebanon because
Israel had newer planes and the USA was able to learn the tricks of
the SA-6 and tought them to Israel, but the SA-6 was OLDER by then.
The Israeli Air Force will have a VERY TOUGH TIME trying to defeat the
LATEST generation Russian SAMs and ABM systems.
Israel would need GREAT aircraft like the F-22 Raptor, F-117
Nighthawk, B-2, etc to EASILY take out the latest Russian SAMs and ABM
systems.

Israel is a regional superpower with the most powerful military in the
Middle East and Israel has up to 400 nuclear weapons, but Israel is
NOT the USA.

BTW, the ONLY weapon to ever shoot down a Stealth Aircraft was A
RUSSIAN SAM in Serbia.
You saying how much Russian SAMS suck CLEARLY shows how little you
know about this subject.
Post by Passerby
Russia ready to sell air defense systems to Iran
http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2003/09/03/03180659_bod.
shtml
Russia could start supplying advanced air defense systems to Iran,
Rajab Safarov, General Director of the Russian Center for Contemporary
Iranian Studies, told the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.
According to Mr. Safarov, the sensational proposal was voiced by late
Lev Rokhlin, during a meeting with Iranian Defense Minister Ali
Shamkhani, within the framework of the visit to Iran by the State
Duma's official delegation in February 1997. Rajab Safarov was also a
member of this delegation, as the Deputy Defense Minister.
According to the newspaper, General Rokhlin suggested that, having
launched military satellites, Iran would be able not only to monitor
all movements inside the country, on its borders and in the region,
but also to ensure its security using various air and missile defense
systems. "As Iran decided to build an atomic power station, it is
necessary to protect it from multiple enemies. For its part, Russia is
ready to provide the most advanced air defense system," General
Rokhlin said.
According to Mr. Safarov, Iran's leadership showed great interest in
this proposal and requested information about the price and technical
specifications of the air defense system. According to the Russian
side, the system would cost about $3-4bn, and it would take at least 3
years to build.
The Iranian delegation said it needed to discuss this issue with the
country's leadership. However, there was no official request from
Iran.
Meanwhile, the Russian delegation headed by professor Zhores Alferov,
Nobel Prize winner and member of the State Duma, will head for Teheran
on September 19, 2003. It is expected that the visit will last about
five days. Perhaps, the issue of the air defense system will also be
discussed at the talks.
At the same time, a meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA) is scheduled for September 8, 2003 in Vienna. International
experts will discuss Iran's nuclear programs. Having allowed a leak of
information about its secret talks with Iran, Russia raises its stake
in the talks with the United States. After the war in Iraq,
anti-American sentiment is growing all around the world. In this
situation, Russian air and missile defense systems are becoming more
popular.
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